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Pitchfork Magazine interview with Bruce Woolley and Barry Walters
May 7th 2015
Hello Bruce,
It’s great to have contact with you. I actually bought your Camera Club album when it was new! (And I’m a fan of various songs and records you contributed to, not just the big ones, but songs like the Raes’ “Don’t Turn Around,” Betsy Cook’s “Love Is the Groove,” and Chris Thompson’s “Beat of Love.”
Glad you like them Barry!
Here are my questions. If this is too much, please pick the ones you feel you can best answer:
You’re credited as one of the writers and players on “Slave to the Rhythm.” Paul Morley is credited as reporting that it was originally designed for Frankie Goes to Hollywood. How did it go to Grace? Did Trevor work on it for months, and then needed to spin it off into a full album because so much money was spent on the single? What were those sessions like?
Designed for Frankie - Yes . . . I wrote the original track to brief with Simon Darlow and The Frankies worked on it for a couple of weeks - but then gave up. I think they resented doing a ‘cover’ - after all Holly Johnson had just written two number one songs (Relax, Two Tribes) I couldn’t blame him at the time. It was Chris Blackwell’s (head of Island Records) to get Grace cut the track - he needed one last single before her contract was up (she’s signed a massive new deal with EMI’s Manhattan label in the States). Grace recorded the vocal - Jill Sinclair (Trevor’s wife and manager) described her performance as ‘disgusting” - but you know, in a good way. However the track at that point was the same vibe as our original demo - very square - very white . . it was almost like a Gary Glitter song!
Trevor worked on the track for some time saying we had to get it right and that he didn’t need the money. Eventually everyone thought that although it was sounding great, it just wasn’t black enough. Jean Paul Goude (the visual artist and father of Grace’s son Pualo Goude) was attending the sessions on a regular basis and he concluded that “You could sell a black groove to a white man but you couldn’t sell a white groove to a black man” - once he’d said that, Chris Blackwell told Trevor he had to re-record the track - and thus began a nine month Studio Odyssey of re-writing and re-recording. I remember a lot of insane sessions, especially in new York - no sleep, a huge amount of experimentation with early digital techniques; The Synclavier appeared on the scene, Sony digital tape was spliced with sticky tape (a nightmare because it clicked until you re-recorded the splice to another machine) and the Fairlight earned its keep. We recorded eight different versions - about one every four weeks - with Trevor Horn and Chris Blackwell in search of the perfect track - and EMI freaking out because the rumour was that Grace was doing a new album with Island - and not them - and they’d payed Grace all this money.
Much of its meaning is amplified by the song showcasing a powerful black woman. Were the lyrics written with Frankie or Grace in mind? Who wrote them?
The song was originally written for Frankie but as we worked on it with Grace (Simon wasn’t around at that point) Trevor encouraged me to re-write some of the lyrics - for which he took a 5% share of the song. Steve Lipson, Trevor’s engineer took 10% for his input, Simon Darlow ended up with 25% and I got 60% - which, given the amount of work I did on what eventually did become an album - was fair enough. BTW EMI were on the verge of suing Chris Blackwell but incredibly everyone agreed to co-release the album “Slave To The Rhythm” on “Island / Manhattan Records”!
Were you present when she recorded her vocals? If so, what was that like?
Grace is amazing in the studio - when she’s “On” that is . . . some singers really need to be coaxed onto the microphone and a lot of the recording process is taken up with working up to that moment. (Trevor is a master of this btw.) Grace is one of these singers - but once she’s in the zone, it’s like 3 or four takes - and you can’t tell her what to do; her timing is incredible - you can’t analyse it - it doesn’t make sense - you can shift her voice and try to correct it - but it won’t be as good . . . in my experience anyway.
Inside Story mixes ‘80s dance music, funk, R&B, jazz, and rock while at times picking up from where “Slave to the Rhythm” left off. Did the record label or Nile Rodgers give any kind of directive as to what the songs you wrote with Grace should sound like?
Well there was a kind of abstract directive from the head of EMI A&R - Bruce Garfield. He told me he wanted “lots of light and shade, with exotic rhythms, melody and groove - Opera, Jazz, Beats - asking me to imagine a leaf being blown through the streets of New York, twisting and turning in the sunshine”! Or something like that . . . Grace and I just wrote everything very quickly - first in London at my studio in Twickenham then we transferred to New York. We demoed everything really rough then Nile came in and we started to master the tracks.
“I’m Not Perfect (But I’m Perfect for You)” was her second most successful song on America’s R&B chart. Was that written to be a hit?
I don’t think I’ve ever written a song to be a hit in that way. It’s just that “I’m not Perfect (But I’m Perfect For You)” started to emerge as a front-runner . . . it began to ‘tick a lot of boxes’ with EMI - plus Nile got quite involved in the track (he played bass) and was meticulous with the arrangement - with other tracks he’d just let us get on with it.
Until Hurricane in 2008, it was the only album where Grace gets a writing credit on every song. Did you write music independently and then hand melodies and chords over to Grace, or did the two of you work together?
Grace is the ideal writing partner for someone like me who is strong on groove and melody, but less lyrically orientated. Even though I came up with “Slave To The Rhythm” as a title and wrote a lot of the lyric, words don’t come as easily as the music; “Slave” was a gift - the rest of the time I was inspired to be able to work with such an original and adventurous lyricist as Grace
Were you present while the Inside Story arrangements were created and/or while Grace recorded her vocals? If so, can you comment on that process?
I was there for the whole thing - it was huge fun but also quite tough at times, I have to say - I think Nile is first to admit that he doesn’t really do sleep!
Did she contribute more than lyrics and vocals?
It’s all very instinctive with Grace and she doesn’t like something you get the message very quickly - she’s a brilliant filter.
I’ve heard that she can be both strong-willed and yet eager to take direction. Is this true, and, if so, how did that combination play out during the making of the album?
Like Jean-Paul Goude says “there’s a switch in Grace’s head and if it flips then she’ll just go with it” so you are very much ‘in the present’ - you have to go for it - working with Grace is not for the faint-hearted . . .
Did she and Rodgers clash? Were drugs an issue?
They got on very well - like two leading actors on a big movie. I can’t comment on the drugs - but don’t forget - it was the 1980s!
Tom Moulton, who produced her first three albums, said that she’d often show up late at the studio (therefore driving up recording costs), and she’s known for showing up late at both her interviews and her concerts. Was this an issue during Slave to the Rhythm and Inside Story?
When I first started working with Grace, she was doing a Bond film and staying at the Dorchester Hotel on Park Lane in London. I wanted to impress her so I arranged to pick her up in my sports car at noon to drive her to my studio. When reception called her room there was no reply - of course she’d only just gone to bed! I drove home and phoned again about 6.0 pm as she was just getting up and I actually gave her a really hard time - I think I actually shouted at her and she apologised so profusely that I felt really bad afterwards. From then on I realised that (to paraphrase Tolkein) “Grace Jones is never too late or too early - she’s always on time”.
Grace is a technically limited singer, and yet most of her albums are musically quite sophisticated. Is this just down to picking excellent collaborators, or is there something about Grace that elevates those involved most every time?
Grace combines many skills (actress, singer, model, writer) and I’ve often thought that she’s her own project ie. you know - a piece of Living Performance Art, and she frames herself with the people who surround her. She’ll never go out of fashion - she told me once “Bruce, Dahling - Classic is always Modern!”
Thanks so much Bruce
My pleasure Barry, thanks for inviting me to Pitchfork
May 7th 2015
Hello Bruce,
It’s great to have contact with you. I actually bought your Camera Club album when it was new! (And I’m a fan of various songs and records you contributed to, not just the big ones, but songs like the Raes’ “Don’t Turn Around,” Betsy Cook’s “Love Is the Groove,” and Chris Thompson’s “Beat of Love.”
Glad you like them Barry!
Here are my questions. If this is too much, please pick the ones you feel you can best answer:
You’re credited as one of the writers and players on “Slave to the Rhythm.” Paul Morley is credited as reporting that it was originally designed for Frankie Goes to Hollywood. How did it go to Grace? Did Trevor work on it for months, and then needed to spin it off into a full album because so much money was spent on the single? What were those sessions like?
Designed for Frankie - Yes . . . I wrote the original track to brief with Simon Darlow and The Frankies worked on it for a couple of weeks - but then gave up. I think they resented doing a ‘cover’ - after all Holly Johnson had just written two number one songs (Relax, Two Tribes) I couldn’t blame him at the time. It was Chris Blackwell’s (head of Island Records) to get Grace cut the track - he needed one last single before her contract was up (she’s signed a massive new deal with EMI’s Manhattan label in the States). Grace recorded the vocal - Jill Sinclair (Trevor’s wife and manager) described her performance as ‘disgusting” - but you know, in a good way. However the track at that point was the same vibe as our original demo - very square - very white . . it was almost like a Gary Glitter song!
Trevor worked on the track for some time saying we had to get it right and that he didn’t need the money. Eventually everyone thought that although it was sounding great, it just wasn’t black enough. Jean Paul Goude (the visual artist and father of Grace’s son Pualo Goude) was attending the sessions on a regular basis and he concluded that “You could sell a black groove to a white man but you couldn’t sell a white groove to a black man” - once he’d said that, Chris Blackwell told Trevor he had to re-record the track - and thus began a nine month Studio Odyssey of re-writing and re-recording. I remember a lot of insane sessions, especially in new York - no sleep, a huge amount of experimentation with early digital techniques; The Synclavier appeared on the scene, Sony digital tape was spliced with sticky tape (a nightmare because it clicked until you re-recorded the splice to another machine) and the Fairlight earned its keep. We recorded eight different versions - about one every four weeks - with Trevor Horn and Chris Blackwell in search of the perfect track - and EMI freaking out because the rumour was that Grace was doing a new album with Island - and not them - and they’d payed Grace all this money.
Much of its meaning is amplified by the song showcasing a powerful black woman. Were the lyrics written with Frankie or Grace in mind? Who wrote them?
The song was originally written for Frankie but as we worked on it with Grace (Simon wasn’t around at that point) Trevor encouraged me to re-write some of the lyrics - for which he took a 5% share of the song. Steve Lipson, Trevor’s engineer took 10% for his input, Simon Darlow ended up with 25% and I got 60% - which, given the amount of work I did on what eventually did become an album - was fair enough. BTW EMI were on the verge of suing Chris Blackwell but incredibly everyone agreed to co-release the album “Slave To The Rhythm” on “Island / Manhattan Records”!
Were you present when she recorded her vocals? If so, what was that like?
Grace is amazing in the studio - when she’s “On” that is . . . some singers really need to be coaxed onto the microphone and a lot of the recording process is taken up with working up to that moment. (Trevor is a master of this btw.) Grace is one of these singers - but once she’s in the zone, it’s like 3 or four takes - and you can’t tell her what to do; her timing is incredible - you can’t analyse it - it doesn’t make sense - you can shift her voice and try to correct it - but it won’t be as good . . . in my experience anyway.
Inside Story mixes ‘80s dance music, funk, R&B, jazz, and rock while at times picking up from where “Slave to the Rhythm” left off. Did the record label or Nile Rodgers give any kind of directive as to what the songs you wrote with Grace should sound like?
Well there was a kind of abstract directive from the head of EMI A&R - Bruce Garfield. He told me he wanted “lots of light and shade, with exotic rhythms, melody and groove - Opera, Jazz, Beats - asking me to imagine a leaf being blown through the streets of New York, twisting and turning in the sunshine”! Or something like that . . . Grace and I just wrote everything very quickly - first in London at my studio in Twickenham then we transferred to New York. We demoed everything really rough then Nile came in and we started to master the tracks.
“I’m Not Perfect (But I’m Perfect for You)” was her second most successful song on America’s R&B chart. Was that written to be a hit?
I don’t think I’ve ever written a song to be a hit in that way. It’s just that “I’m not Perfect (But I’m Perfect For You)” started to emerge as a front-runner . . . it began to ‘tick a lot of boxes’ with EMI - plus Nile got quite involved in the track (he played bass) and was meticulous with the arrangement - with other tracks he’d just let us get on with it.
Until Hurricane in 2008, it was the only album where Grace gets a writing credit on every song. Did you write music independently and then hand melodies and chords over to Grace, or did the two of you work together?
Grace is the ideal writing partner for someone like me who is strong on groove and melody, but less lyrically orientated. Even though I came up with “Slave To The Rhythm” as a title and wrote a lot of the lyric, words don’t come as easily as the music; “Slave” was a gift - the rest of the time I was inspired to be able to work with such an original and adventurous lyricist as Grace
Were you present while the Inside Story arrangements were created and/or while Grace recorded her vocals? If so, can you comment on that process?
I was there for the whole thing - it was huge fun but also quite tough at times, I have to say - I think Nile is first to admit that he doesn’t really do sleep!
Did she contribute more than lyrics and vocals?
It’s all very instinctive with Grace and she doesn’t like something you get the message very quickly - she’s a brilliant filter.
I’ve heard that she can be both strong-willed and yet eager to take direction. Is this true, and, if so, how did that combination play out during the making of the album?
Like Jean-Paul Goude says “there’s a switch in Grace’s head and if it flips then she’ll just go with it” so you are very much ‘in the present’ - you have to go for it - working with Grace is not for the faint-hearted . . .
Did she and Rodgers clash? Were drugs an issue?
They got on very well - like two leading actors on a big movie. I can’t comment on the drugs - but don’t forget - it was the 1980s!
Tom Moulton, who produced her first three albums, said that she’d often show up late at the studio (therefore driving up recording costs), and she’s known for showing up late at both her interviews and her concerts. Was this an issue during Slave to the Rhythm and Inside Story?
When I first started working with Grace, she was doing a Bond film and staying at the Dorchester Hotel on Park Lane in London. I wanted to impress her so I arranged to pick her up in my sports car at noon to drive her to my studio. When reception called her room there was no reply - of course she’d only just gone to bed! I drove home and phoned again about 6.0 pm as she was just getting up and I actually gave her a really hard time - I think I actually shouted at her and she apologised so profusely that I felt really bad afterwards. From then on I realised that (to paraphrase Tolkein) “Grace Jones is never too late or too early - she’s always on time”.
Grace is a technically limited singer, and yet most of her albums are musically quite sophisticated. Is this just down to picking excellent collaborators, or is there something about Grace that elevates those involved most every time?
Grace combines many skills (actress, singer, model, writer) and I’ve often thought that she’s her own project ie. you know - a piece of Living Performance Art, and she frames herself with the people who surround her. She’ll never go out of fashion - she told me once “Bruce, Dahling - Classic is always Modern!”
Thanks so much Bruce
My pleasure Barry, thanks for inviting me to Pitchfork
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